Where you won’t find trendy business tactics, but you will find truthful insights and timeless stories from leaders to look up to.
Ep. 018 | Curate Conversations With Pia Beck
PODCAST SHOW NOTES
Stephanie Barron Hall (M.A. Organizational Communication & Leadership) is a speaker, certified Enneagram coach, and author of the book, The Enneagram in Love: A Roadmap for Building and Strengthening Romantic Relationships.
Stephanie founded her Instagram page, @NineTypesCo, in 2017 as a way to explore her own interest in the Enneagram, and it has since grown into a community of people who are learning about the Enneagram, themselves, and their relationships.
In this episode, Pia and Steph talk about subtypes vs wings (and which is a better indication of the nuances of each type), why we need to differentiate each type’s core motivation and not just look at habit descriptions, what goes wrong when we weaponize the enneagram, and — just about everything else enneagram that we could fit in.
Although you don’t see much of her face on her Instagram platform, the human behind the well-known Nine Types Co. account is as lovely as you’d imagine.
Links mentioned in this episode:
- Follow Nine Types Co on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/ninetypesco/)
- Check out the Enneagram IRL course (https://www.enneagramirl.com/)
- Read the Blog post on Core Motivation by Enneagram Type (https://ninetypes.co/blog/core-motivation-by-type)
- Listen to the Enneagram In Real Life Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/enneagram-in-real-life/id1515412569)
Music created by Queentide.
Stephanie Barron Hall is a speaker certified Enneagram coach and author of the book, The Enneagram in Love, a Roadmap for Building and Strengthening Romantic Relationships. She also has a master’s degree in [00:01:00] organizational communication and leadership. And you probably know her from Instagram where she founded and runs the account Nine Types Co.
She founded the Page nine Types Co in 2017 as a way to explore her own interest in the Enneagram. And it has since grown into a community of people who are learning about the Enneagram themselves and their relationships. Stephanie has been facilitating personality centric team development for years. As an outside consultant for organizations ranging from small businesses to Fortune 100 companies, she specializes in bringing clarity to complex concepts and communicating the Enneagram in a way that is relatable and concise so that it can be transformative for all.
Stephanie’s approach to the Enneagram is grounded in communication theory and emphasizes deep personal work through application curiosity and self-awareness. I know that at some point you’ve shared one of staff. Instagram posts on [00:02:00] your stories. She is not only a leading name in the Enneagram, but she was also one of the first people to use graphics to translate relatable, shareable content on social media.
You’re likely very familiar with the viral style graphics, that she was one of the leaders in way back when, when Instagram didn’t want you to post anything but pictures. This is why we were so honored to interview her in this episode of the Curate Conversations Podcast. In this episode, we talk about subtypes versus wings, and which is a better indication of the nuances of each type in Steph’s opinion.
We also talked about why we need to differentiate each type’s core motivation and not just look at habit descriptions, even though it makes for great social media content. We talked about what goes wrong when we weaponize the Enneagram. Pretty much everything else, Engram, that we could fit in to a one hour conversation.
Although you don’t see much of her face on her Instagram platform, I [00:03:00] can assure you that the human behind the well known nine types co account is as lovely as you’d imagine. I am sure that you’ll agree after you give this episode to listen.
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Welcome, Steph. I’m so happy to have you here.
Thanks for having me. I’m happy to be here.
Um, okay. So there’s a couple of questions that I always like to start off the conversation with. Um, but before we even do that, there’s like a very obvious question that I think we need to, address first, which is, what is your Enneagram type?
Sure. So my type is type three.
Cool. Okay. Um, a lot of our listeners are familiar with the Enneagram, definitely not to the degree that [00:05:00] you are obviously. So we’ll dig more into that. Do you wanna share, like your wing or anything else about your type?
dissect all the things?
Yeah, so I actually don’t really teach wings in the same way that, um, a lot of people think about them. I think about them more as growth stretches rather than like personality identifiers. But I do use subtypes a lot. So, um, sometimes people do call the wing subtypes. That was, it was referred to that way in one book.
Um, but the way that I approach subtypes is actually, uh, the instincts. So, um, then with that, my subtypes are sexual and then self-preservation is secondary.
Okay, cool. tell us more about
Yeah. So a lot of the time we, when we think about the enneagram, of course we think about the nine types, and then we think about the wings, you know, So then, you know, you can have each of the, the wing types. But subtypes really get at a more specific level. So the way to think about subtypes is we have the nine [00:06:00] ngram types, and then there are three instincts. And we all have all of them. And, and in essence, this is like a little bit simplistic, but in essence there’s survival instincts. So self-preservation, which is basically this concept of I’m responsible for my own survival.
And so these folks have a, an interest in, um, health and security and, you know, safety, personal things like that. They tend to be a bit more anxious, um, than some of the other, you know, subtypes.
then we have the social subtype, which is this concept of like, if the herd survives, I survive. So they really seek this sense of belonging and togetherness and joining with groups.
Um, and then the sexual instinct, which is. it’s about looking for spark and zing and like seeking that sense of intensity. Um, there can be a real desire to find somebody else to like dissolve boundaries between yourself and that other [00:07:00] person, but there’s also this desire to be a little bit separate from others as well.
Um, and to kind of maintain that sense of, you know, mystery almost in order to be like attractive to other people. Um, of course that could be like physically attractive, like beauty, things like that. But a lot of the time it has a lot of other nuances to it. Um, in general, I don’t like to recommend that people just listen to those brief descriptions and decide which one is primary for them.
Um, because when we mix the instincts so that we have three instincts with the nine types, we get 27 unique subtypes, which means that each subtype has a very specific kind of structure to it. Um, a very specific way that they go about things and a really specific growth path. So I think that’s why it’s helpful.
Okay, cool. I don’t know my subtype and now I’m not gonna guess with that advice, , so I’ll get back to you on that. Um, but I do know that I am a type one. It’s so [00:08:00] interesting. I, I actually have a question about this later, but earlier in my life, the very first time I tested, I was type three. Um, and later in life, whether that’s due to like age or life circumstances or my own growth journey or whatever that looks like, I, I test it as type one.
And when I think about that now, it, it does, it feels like when I’m like really settled in my authenticity, um, I am like text book type one. Um, so I’m, I have questions about, about that and whether or not that’s in my head or you know, if that’s a, a legit thing that happens. But before we get into. I want to ask you about what you’re proud of.
So obviously your platform is hugely successful. Everyone that I know has at one time, uh, shared one of your posts, and in my opinion, you really were one of the first people, at least in my like corner of the internet that set the tone for what, like high reach, [00:09:00] kind of viral, but relatable content can, can look like on social media.
Um, and so what are you proud of?
Yeah. Well thank you for that. Little preamble there. I think that’s very kind. And also it’s so interesting to hear that now because when I first started my account, um, first of all, carousels I don’t think even existed when I first started. And so, and also people were still doing. Photos only, right? So I would post like a photo, and then I would have the description in the caption.
Like if I was gonna talk about type eight, for example, I would have the description there. But then I pretty soon started using actual graphics, like having the text on the graphics. And early on I was told, This will never work. It is not supposed to work. This is not how Instagram is designed. And this was by like people who are experts on the subject matter.
And I was like, but I don’t know why it worked for me. And like, [00:10:00] because, and, and we, this conversation happened after I had gone from in, in one year, gone from 1000 followers to a hundred thousand or maybe more, maybe more than a hundred thousand. Um, and I was like, I don’t know why it works, but it does . So, And I think that now you look at Instagram and it’s, so much of it is graphics and educational material like that and things like that. And I think when we think of what is viral, I, I think two big components of that. Um, one, the share share to stories, you know, for a second they are taking that away and I’m so glad that they didn’t because like that’s how people really connect with this type of content.
Um, sharing things that they really resonate with and then also giving people something to look at that they can then reflect for themselves. I think that those things are, are really significant, but for me, when I think about, you know, what I’m proud of and, and what feels successful to me, it’s [00:11:00] funny.
It’s really easy for me to become disillusioned with Instagram. So I was on another podcast recently when they said, Oh, you, you’re really successful. And you know, of course I think for me as a three, there’s always another bar. To reach in terms of success. So it’s very difficult for me to fi to feel that way.
However, I would say that it’s the moment when somebody says something like, this really changed my perspective, or this made this huge impact on my life. Or even when I see my clients or my core students come back and be like, Oh my gosh, like I made this huge change, or I had this huge breakthrough because of what you shared about this or, or that sort of thing.
Um, those things I think are what make me feel really grateful that I get to do the work that I’m doing.
Yeah, totally. I think that there’s so few feelings that are similar to that feeling of reading something that makes you feel like fundamentally validated as a person, right? Like I remember the first time I [00:12:00] read, you know, the description of the types and I was. Oh my God. Like, it, it feels like this was written for me.
Right. And I think that, that does have, have a huge impact. Tell me a little bit more about like the people who are your clients or engage in, in your coursework. What type of break breakthroughs are they having and, and how is it impacting their life?
Yeah, I mean, I, I think of course it, it really depends on their type. So people have different types, obviously have different things, but it could be things like, wow, I really started to recognize that I am really hard on myself and that maybe there’s a different way of doing this, or I really started to recognize that I was just making all of these assumptions about my partner, um, and recognizing. Those assumptions were actually breaking down our relationship and then thinking, okay, if I can just understand them through this perspective instead and, and not [00:13:00] think that they’re like me in ways that they’re naturally, you know, really dissimilar, like having that sort of ability to see the different perspectives or to be really curious about themselves or to be really curious about each other.
Those are the types of things where they start to think, Okay, like I’m actually going to, you know, for example, a type nine, like, do what I want and need to do in my life, even if that means that there can be the breakdown of these specific relationships. Like I know that this is what’s right for me. So, so those sorts of things, Um, just breaking out of those natural patterns.
I think those are the things. I feel most excited about and they’re really courageous as well because for any type, any time we do something that’s different from our normal pattern, like the normal strategy, we believe we needed to get our needs met throughout life. Um, anytime we do something different, it’s just, it takes such courage, but it’s also really healing, I think.
That’s so [00:14:00] cool. Okay, so we’ve mentioned a couple of things, right? We’ve mentioned, wings, which is not necessarily something that you subscribe to subtypes. Um, and then we also have, you’re mentioning like, you know, patterns and kind of our default way of, of going about the world based on our type.
There’s a lot of different layers to the Enneagram, right? There’s a lot of different components. Not as many as some other. Constructs that I would maybe compare it to, like human design for example, is like a foreign language. Which is one of the things I love about the Enneagram, right? It feels really tangible.
Um, but it’s complex, which is what makes it, I think, stand up, right? It’s what makes it feel so validating for people and what makes it such a use, such a useful tool. And that can sometimes make it hard to, um, learn right? And implement and, act from and kind of embrace. So how do we approach this?
How do we use this tool? And if there’s other kind of like main constructs or parameters that you think we need to like lay [00:15:00] out on the table to answer that question, feel free.
Yeah, so I think one of the big challenges that I see a lot is that a lot of people really do get their information on the engram from Instagram, which is fine. Like there, there are a lot of great, you know, accounts out there and, and there can be a lot of good and helpful information, and also there’s a lot of misinformation.
And also just the reality is that it’s content marketing, right? So at the end of the day, the depth and the nuance is not gonna be found on social media and it can’t be. And also like, I think another thing with this too, and this is like one of my kind of soap boxes I’d guess, but like when people kind of push back on like, Oh wait, it costs money to work with you, that sort of thing.
And it’s like, yeah, it does, because.
Cause I have a master’s degree and I wrote a book and like I know
Right. And like have three different certifications in, in enneagram
So, so yeah, I, I think there is this [00:16:00] real sense of not knowing as much, like we don’t know what we don’t know. Right? So, so thinking, um, you know, the, that when people are going to work with you on a deeper level with the enneagram in particular or, or whatever, you know, it may be, there is a need to have some sort of transaction there because, I know that for myself anyway, when I get into a space of, um, just giving, giving, giving, which is how I was for the first, you know, four years plus that I had my business in, being in that space, is exhausting.
And that’s when I get burned out. So I think. Recognizing that there is space to go deeper. I think that is really, really useful. And then looking at more of the nuances, more of the depth, so approaching the engram and, and really using it and applying it with, um, a consideration of, of more of like what is the ego structure of the personality [00:17:00] type, rather than like, what are the habit descriptions that we can find online?
Um, because really it is about these strategies. And so I think sometimes people look at, you know, the overarching things and are like, Okay, I know how to do this. I know how to teach this. I know how to relate with it. Um, but actually maybe there’s some more, depth that you can delve into a bit more.
And so that’s kind of why I’ve created things like I, you know, my course, which goes into a lot more detail than what I have on Instagram. But I would say with that, all of that said, the first step I think is just observation, like self-observation, and curiosity. Being really curious about yourself, and observing yourself without judgment.
Those things are really powerful because when we judge ourselves, we just can’t see what we need to actually see. So, um, a and my, myself included, like that’s a constant thing that I’m processing and working through. Like, I, I really resist this concept of like, Oh, [00:18:00] well now I’m a healthy such and such. Because I just don’t think that we ever really get there in that sense.
Like, I think that my core belief is that we are all like, good, you know, I’m good enough as I am and I don’t have to actually change to be worthy of. And also if I want to have better relationships or I wanna have a better relationship with myself, there are some ways that I can do that just by starting to observe things.
And the more growth work you do, just the faster you’ll see those things that kind of make you feel frustrated about yourself. Um, so like the, I think just sometimes there’s this expectation that, Okay, I’m gonna do growth work for five months, and then everything is gonna be better and it’s all gonna be fixed, and it’s just, you just catch yourself quicker.
Yeah, totally. Yeah. It doesn’t really work like that.
[00:19:00] Um, okay. So beginning with self-observation and, lack of judgment and, um, just, yeah, being kind of curious about, this is how I show up in the world. This is how I interact with other people and how they show up in the world. These are the things that come really naturally to me.
These are the things that I feel a lot of like friction around. Um, I think that’s great. You mentioned, ego versus habit descriptions. Can you, articulate the difference there for us?
Sure. So, um, ego structure, what with the enneagram um, the way that we can kind of think about this in general is we all have an essence. So if you imagine, if you imagine like diagrams that you might have seen in a science textbook about the earth, you know, in elementary school where it’s like the core, it’s like this, this little center, you know, the molten lava center and there’s all these layers.
So, We all have in our center, like this essence the essence of who we truly [00:20:00] are. Um, and it’s something that from jump, we basically thought like subconsciously, okay, this needs to be protected. So as we move through life, we build up what we call in the enneagram space personality. So the personality structure, we build that up in order to defend ourselves and to, you know, these are strategies that we need.
So some aspects of that could be like the passion of the type, um, the fixation of the type, the defense mechanism of the type, those sorts of things are some of the examples of that. That are these different structures that we, you know, all have, that we all use to keep ourselves safe. And so when we think about it in that sense, we can understand, okay, there’s.
Like a lot more to this. And each of the, you know, the passion and the fixation, for example, they each have like a counterpoint, that is representative [00:21:00] of where we’re moving toward. And so with the enneagram, what we’re really trying to do is to go back to our truest selves. Go back to that sense of essence.
Um, it’s really starting to recognize like, okay, my entire life I’ve thought I’ve needed this one strategy. But actually I, I don’t, you know, maybe I could do something different here. And to move back into that, that sense of essence,
Hmm. I love that. I think that’s part of the reason, in my experience at least why the enneagram is so powerful, is that it just reminds people who they are. Right. And I think when we are like in ourselves, in our bodies, in our essence, that’s when we’re able to. Exist in the world in a way that we want to, right?
That’s fulfilling, that’s authentic, that’s meaningful, and that, um, supports the people around us and really [00:22:00] creates movement, impact, contentment, whatever we wanna call it.
Okay. So I wanna go back to, one of the things I mentioned earlier, which was around, uh, types and, and can they change? So like I said, when I first took the Enneagram test, I was like, in my early twenties, I tested as a three, later tested as a one.
Um, and I feel very like, confident in that. And I also think there were a lot of like life circumstances that were kind of informing my perspective that shifted due to, you know, starting a business, doing a lot of like, work on myself, you know, all those things. Is this like a thing? Does, does this happen?
Yeah, so actually your type doesn’t change. And so this is one of the biggest kind of misconceptions is people are like, Well, I took the test at this point and it was this, and I took the test at this point, and it was this. So what’s important to note is that the enneagram is not a test or not an assessment.
[00:23:00] So it is actually a tool and like a system. And a lot of the time we think of it when we think of it as a test or assessment. We’re like, Well, how could it not change? Like, because I can take it on any random day and it, I get a different result. But those assessments are really just trying to help us understand these things about ourselves.
Because when we think about the enneagram, it’s really about what is that core motivation? What is the driving force beneath all of the outer behavior? Um, and tests are not really great at measuring that. So tests are really good at, at saying, okay, if you’re on time or you’re not on time, basically. And some are better than others for sure, but in general, I think assessments typically just point you in the right direction.
Um, so for most people, your top result will be in the top three to four responses. Unless certain types in general tend to to answer the same across the board. Like they get the [00:24:00] exact, like pretty even results across the board, um, which. That’s a whole different thing. But yeah, so, so when we take these assessments, I always recommend that people then look at your results, see what resonates, see what doesn’t, and just start researching, start learning about it, start self reflecting, seeing if that behavior, especially, you know, maybe near early twenties you had that very type three behavior.
But why was that behavior happening? Um, and so seeing like what’s beneath the surface, so not what you’re doing, but why you’re doing it. And I think that’s the most important thing because when we think again about that essence, that I was speaking to earlier and these different kind of components that act as protection. Those things, you know, if you think about it from that perspective, you can understand how that wouldn’t change, right? Like it’s the core of who you are. But it does take some discovery because a lot of the time with [00:25:00] those defenses and with those, you know, parts of the structure, there can be this kind of almost, um, lens where everything is obfuscated.
Like what’s actually our core motivation. That’s really hard to identify and consider, especially if it’s something that we, our psyche is like, Oh, let’s not look at that. That’s too ugly, that’s too gross. When that’s the case, that will generally make it very difficult to know our type.
That makes so much sense. So it’s pretty common that people miss type themselves, I would imagine.
Yeah. Especially if you’re relying solely on a test. Yeah.
Yeah. So, How do we, how do we know, like how, like obviously we take your course right and work with you and read your book and follow you on social media and all the things, right? But if it’s, um, if it is kind of this like discovery process, right? And uncovering that core motivation, how do we know that?
Like we’ve really identified that thing for ourselves.
[00:26:00] Mm-hmm. . Um, yeah, it can be challenging. I think that the biggest thing is when we start to see it,
You can’t unsee it.
Yeah, you just can’t unsee it. And, and for a lot of people, you know, this is why I talk about subtypes because there are a lot of the subtypes that aren’t represented well on Instagram or on, these different spaces. And so you might not see yourself. And so that’s what makes it harder, to see, you know, your specific type because, you might just see it and be like, Okay, that that doesn’t really resonate, or it kind of resonates, but it’s not so much that, it’s more so this.
Um, so that’s kind of why I go to the subtype level. But I think when we can start to see like, Oh, I’m seeing how these things, these different parts of myself were playing out throughout my entire life. And especially for me when I work with people, I want them to look at the core motivation and how that shows up for them and really [00:27:00] identify and observe that, um, what they’re, they’re avoiding. Which sometimes people call the core fear. And then the passion, I think that those things are the most important. And I ha actually wrote a blog post on passions and virtues. Um, I keep saying that, that term, but if you don’t know what that means, you can find it on my, on my blog. And those things I think are really powerful and can help you see things differently.
But a lot of the time they’re just more buried, right? So they don’t always show up exactly the same way in our behavior.
Yeah, totally. We’ll link that blog post in the show notes so everyone can read it.
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I’m really curious if you could very succinctly with the disclaimer that like this is a [00:30:00] massive body of work and like discovery and resources and all of those things are needed. If you could list the main thing that people avoid and the passion for each type.
mean I would love to do like the motivation maybe for each type.
Yeah, that’s great. Let’s do that.
So the core motivation for each of the types. Um, so this is like very surface level obviously, cuz it’s just a quick little note for each. But for type one, they. They are motivated to be good, right? And correct. Sometimes I call it, integris instead of correct meaning having integrity, being ethically and morally good.
Um, being a good person, that’s what’s important. Twos are motivated by the need to be wanted, loved and needed, and a lot of the time they put their worth into, um, how lovable or likable others see them as. So they are kind of asking like, Do you think I’m likable? Then I am, you know? Um, [00:31:00] and, and so they kind of put their worth in that.
And, you know, building positive rapport. Threes are motivated by need to be admired, valued, and successful. And really for threes, I think they want a sense of success. They never quite feel like they get there, but um, they just really don’t want to fail in any sense of the word. So that’s kind of what they’re. Fours are tricky. Because I think fours would all describe themselves a little bit differently. That’s kind of part of the thing. But I think that fours really want to know and understand and express their truest selves. And so they’re kind kind of on this search for identity. And it’s not in the sense that they don’t know themselves.
It’s more so in the sense that they’re constantly getting to like the bottom of the ocean and finding a little bit more to go. Um, so they’re kind of just constantly digging in that sense. Fives are motivated by the need to be self-sufficient [00:32:00] and competent, and they really want to be capable of caring for themselves, which means a lot of the time they kind of decrease their needs.
They can almost be like, they, they kinda decrease the things that they want. Maybe they just don’t have a lot of things hanging up in their home or something like that because they, they make things a little bit more capable and, and make it to where that they can provide for themselves.
Sixes are motivated by this need to be secure and, and to feel really safe and to also feel really certain. So a lot of the time people assume that six’s just care about where the fire exits are. And while that can be a component of, of type six, it’s actually more so about financial, relational, or other security aspects as well as to feel really certain.
And what’s really tricky, again for all of us, the more we get the thing that we want, the more we realize that that wasn’t enough of it. And so the more [00:33:00] sixes learn, they think they’ll feel more certain, but in actuality, they just find more ways that they’re uncertain. Sevens are motivated by this need to be free to explore the world of opportunities and possibilities.
So they believe that anything is possible. They just wanna go out there and explore it and figure it out and find things and learn things and, and all these different aspects of that. So, um, it’s really about the freedom piece. Eights are motivated by the need to be against, and, , it’s not to be contrarian.
It’s really to kind of have this tough exterior and they push back on things and they just kind of, it’s kind of this way of saying, Okay, like you can’t control me or betray me or overtake me. And so it’s that sense of outer toughness. And the nines are motivated by this need to be at peace internally and externally.
So they seek to kind of find a comfy space for themselves. They want everyone, you know, outside of themselves to be at peace and harmony with them and harmony with others. And then they want to feel that peace internally [00:34:00] too.
Mm. That was so good. Thank you.
I, um, my fiance is, uh, not someone who has explored this tool and, I’ve always struggled to kind of like type him, which I know you’re not really supposed to type other people, but I’m curious and, you know, just, and that is helpful, right? Obviously it’s a very simplistic overview and there’s so much more to all of the types, but, it’s helpful to, to kind of understand like that core motivation and it kind of helps you, I think, distinguish, People’s, like you said, like their, their habits and, and the way that they display versus like what’s really at their, at their core and, and what drives them forward.
Yeah. Well, and I think too, you know, when you were mentioning earlier about mistyping. Um, you know, type one and three are, are, can be really similar and there could be a lot of mistyping there. And in fact, whenever I take an assessment type one comes up secondary for me,
but, [00:35:00] well, type one or type eight i, I guess would, would be secondary.
Um, but when I look at what is actually motivating me and driving me the image piece that is a part of type three is so much more important. Whereas for type one, that’s not really as much of a driving force. Like they care about that a little bit, but it’s not the ba the main thing.
Yeah, that makes so much sense. So, I wanna talk about relationships, which is always like another whole layer to this whole thing, right? So like, like you were saying, just when you kind of figure out like, all right, this is who I am and this is how I operate in the world, and this is what drives me, then all of a sudden you throw someone else into the mix and it’s like, Oh God, how do, how do we, like, interact with each other?
And so, um, I know that you’re really passionate about professional relationships and how that shows up in communication and, how, you know, the way that we know ourselves informs the way that we connect with other people and vice versa. So walk us through the Enneagram in a professional setting. So [00:36:00] enneagram at work, how do you see that showing up?
And then how could it show up with the proper use of this tool?
Sure. So, In general. I mean, we are who we are . And I think, that’s why I like the Enneagram. I’ve, you know, worked in a lot of different organizations and,
in terms of using things like disc or, or other things like that. And, and of course, you know, something like disk could be really helpful because it gives you these different kind of buckets of behavior or, or categories and, and that can be really useful.
However, um, part of the thing is that it’s behavioral and that it does kind of change how you show up at, at work versus at home. Um, and it’s not really meant to be, you know, universally applied necessarily. But, when it comes to the enneagram, like you are the same person at home and at work and have that same motivation, and so it does play out [00:37:00] differently, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that, you know, you’re going to change entirely.
So one of the things that I see happening a lot is, You know, if I’m the type of person, this is actually not me. My husband would laugh if he, he heard me say this, but imagine I’m a person who, when I am angry, I get really quiet. So then I go into a meeting and I see a coworker who is really quiet.
Maybe they’re giving me some body language that normally to me would mean, Oh, I’m angry. Well, then you start reacting based on that information. I think it’s easy to think, Oh, I wouldn’t do that. I’m a professional. I wouldn’t do that. But we do it, you know? We really do. And so being able to just to think, Okay, I actually know that I have my motivation, so now I’ve entered the en agram.
I understand I have this certain motivation. So instead of assuming that their behavior equals my motivation, [00:38:00] Kind of taking that assumption off and thinking, okay, they probably have their own motivation, so maybe there’s something else happening with them. They could be just feeling quiet that day. They could be feeling sick, they could be tired, they could be thinking, there could be all these different reasons for that same behavior.
So, instead of going into those meetings and assuming how somebody else is feeling based on their response, we can use the enneagram one within ourselves just to be like, All right, I’m gonna assume that they have their own motivation and I’m not going to apply what I’m thinking to what they seem to be exhibiting, and I’m gonna be curious about it instead of making that assumption.
And then if we do know the type, we can imagine, okay, well maybe they just need a little more time to think about this. So it kind of diffuses some of that miscommunication. And some of that. Sense of assumption or misunderstanding. So that can be really useful. And then [00:39:00] I also just think that in general, when we are operating without that awareness, we get in our own way all the time.
Like we are not realizing how our strategies can actually be self-defeating. So when we start to recognize like, Oh actually, you know, there’s something else happening here, or, I am noticing myself acting this way when I want this result, we can stop doing that and we can kind of step out of that. So that’s one of the ways that I see it happening a lot.
I was just working with a team this week and there were several sixes on the team and they were talking about how. can be this agitation or frustration between them, the sixes and other people on the team, because the sixes are asking questions, they’re poking holes, they’re really wanting to make things better, but the other people on the team sometimes get frustrated.
They feel like that’s unnecessarily slowing thing things down, or they feel like, Why are you competing with me? And so having that open [00:40:00] conversation allowed them to then describe their communication style in a way that was really useful. Instead of just being like, Wow, they’re just doing this thing again. It just opened up the conversation and so they could kind of laugh about it and then they could kind of move forward from there.
Hmm. Such a good example. So I mean, I, what I’m hearing and what you’re saying is that one thing that’s possible, if this is used correctly in workplace settings is , just like more amicable working relationships, right? Like there’s so much tension that comes with making assumptions about people, or confusing, you know, their behavior with your motivation or not understanding the why behind someone’s communication style.
And so if we’re able to know ourselves and know kind of how we show up in those settings, and then also have just like the general awareness to be able to keep an open mind about how other people are showing up. Obviously it’s gonna make for more collaborative, amicable, respectful working environments
Yeah. [00:41:00] And I would say too, um, yeah, like the, there is at this level too, right? Because, there is a lot of research about the impact of self-knowledge on interpersonal communication. And so that can be really useful to know as well, because if you know yourself better, then you can improve your communication style with anyone that you.
Yeah, totally. And like from the leader perspective, this has been huge for me. Like as my team has grown, I’ve needed to learn how to like, ask for what I need to be set up for success, right? Like, I have gone through so many, relationships on my team where, I didn’t, I didn’t have that self-awareness in place to ask for the things or at least communicate the things that make a really big difference for me.
And, and, and then vice versa, right? Like, because I wasn’t doing that. They weren’t doing that. And so we were having a lot of this like, you know, confusion of behavior and [00:42:00] motivation, and what I’ve learned is that by knowing myself better, I’m, I’m so better able to set expectations for my team, right?
And to communicate up front about this is kind of how this thing goes, right? Or I really request that you do this thing this way when we’re interacting on Slack or whatever. And then not only does that, I think make for, uh, a more useful like, transition onto our team, but also it creates a culture where my team knows that they can like ask for those things too, right?
And they can say, I need to be given feedback like in this way, right? Or can I request that? Have this, whatever it is. Right. And I think that that’s been so hugely beneficial, especially as like a really small team where we all kind of touch everything. Like we [00:43:00] cross paths a lot, right. Even though we work mostly virtually.
And I think it’s just made for a really like truly collaborative environment where everyone on the team can do what they’re really, really good at. And there’s just like so much space and grace and understanding for things that like each of us is not good at.
Yeah, definitely. And I think for me, for my team, I feel like I haven’t so much had any like tension really, but it’s more so just helped from the get go just to be very,
Well you probably did a much better job of like building your team on this than I did
Well, no, I mean, I think, like, I think that maybe I just gel with the people that I, you know,
brought on really well. But also actually though, so I have a big thing against hiring based on enneagram type. It’s very discriminatory that is not there. I think the only [00:44:00] test that you can actually use in hiring is called, uh, Hogan. Um, at least several years ago when I was working with an HR consultant, that’s what they shared with me. But hiring based on type is discriminatory and I would never recommend it. And also, we can end up making a lot of assumptions about how people, um, will operate in a job based on their type. So for example, my assistant is a type four.
A lot of people think, Oh, you would not want a four as an assistant, like, Like these are, these are things that people have said to me online, , like, uh, you know, they’re gonna be just caught in daydreaming or whatever all the time. And I feel like it’s not that way at all. Like my assistant is fantastic.
Um, and there’s never been like a dropped anything. But when I was hiring I, a couple years ago, I was like, I had all these people writing into me and they sharing their type and I was like, Don’t share your type with me. I
know Like I do not [00:45:00] wanna know. Please do not share that. I want to know about your qualification and what you’re skilled in.
I don’t wanna know your type. That is not going to be helpful. Because I really wanted to kind of remain unbiased because I really believe that any type can work.
Totally, totally. Um, does that happen to you, like all the time? Like, are people constantly coming up to you on the street and being like, Hey, I’m pm, I’m a type one
I mean, I, Yes. I mean in the virtual street, I would say for sure, and one of the things that just frustrates me to no end that I hear a lot, and it’s literally, there’s a specific demographic that does this, but
Hey, this person said that they don’t wanna date me, but I wanna date them. They’re this type, How do I get them back?
Mm-hmm. that I’m like, Uhuh. Mm-hmm. . We’re not doing it. Nope.
Oh, that’s so interesting.
I’m like, you cannot use the [00:46:00] enneagram manipulate people into dating you. If they say they don’t
They don’t wanna date you. seems like a personal problem.
so vast. Right, Right, right. That’s not, that’s not a tight problem. That’s, that’s a you problem. I mean, that makes sense, right? Like not saying it’s okay. Right. It’s not, it’s not okay , but it’s like I understand how people get there, right? Of like, Oh, cuz I think it’s probably.
Let’s, let’s just give people the benefit of the doubt, right? And say like, Oh, it’s coming from a good place, Right? They’re trying to understand how this person’s brain works and how to communicate with this person, et cetera. Let’s just say, let’s assume that that’s true about these people who knows,
Sure. Who knows?
Yeah. So, you know, I, I, I can understand how people get there. Yeah. But obviously we can’t use the enneagram to manipulate people into like Yeah, yeah. Into like, doing the things we wanna do, and that, and that’s true in all areas of life, right? So like, whether it’s dating or whether it’s at work or whatever, it, it’s not a [00:47:00] weapon.
Yeah. And I, I actually unfortunately have seen that though. Like especially, and this, this honestly is like one of those things. That’s a thing that I can. I feel like confident in the way that I approach things with working with teams. Because I do talk a lot about ethics and ground rules before we begin.
And I’ve met people who are like, you know, just a random person on my team decided to do an any grant presentation. And what ended up happening is, maybe the leader ended up saying, Well, you’re this type and you need to work on this, which means that unless you do this, then you know you’re not going to successful here or whatever.
Or another person who said that at their organization, they use the enneagram really way too much and ended up saying, Oh, only this type can get a promotion.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that for me is such like alarm bells, you know, everything is like, no, no, no, [00:48:00] no, no, no. Um, and it’s one of those things that makes me very wary, but I think.
You know, that’s why it’s really useful to have somebody, obviously it doesn’t have to be me, but somebody who actually knows what they’re talking about. They have more training, they understand organizational dynamics in a bit of a different way. Approaching it with that perspective is really useful to avoid those sorts of dynamics because that creates a very unhealthy work environment.
Totally. And I know there’s definitely a population of people out there that have resistance to these types of tools for that reason. Right? Like, I, like my fiance is, is totally like this, right? He’s like, Oh, well, you know, I see so many people using this as like an excuse or a weapon or, uh, or just turned into, into something that’s, that’s more dysfunctional than, than supportive and functional and can like, build bridges between people.
Um, Oh, that’s so interesting. So, okay, so I’m gonna bounce around a little bit. I’m gonna kinda like switch gears. You offered a book about the [00:49:00] Enneagram in romantic relationships, so like moving on from work to. Romantic relationships, although I’m sure there’s tons of similarity there. Do you believe that there is compatibility between types?
no, actually, so, um, and I will also say that I, don’t have a particular interest honestly in romantic relationships. And in general, I just think of it all as interpersonal communication. So I feel like there is a lot of like, bleed together, like you were just saying, in, in similarities. But, no. So I actually think that, um, any type pairing can work.
I think on an individual level. A lot of people have some specific aversion to specific types. But that’s fine. We all are allowed to like or dislike whoever we like or dislike, you know? Um, so in terms of compatibility, I think that’s totally. It, it’s not a thing. And, what I care a lot more about is, is this person [00:50:00] kind to you?
Are they respectful toward you? Do they ask you how your day was? Like, those things matter a lot more than an enneagram type.
totally. So on that note, I have, uh, another interpersonal, but not necessarily romantic set of questions about this. And then I’m gonna follow it up with like something, you know, kind of tangible, Dan or all of this for us. So I, in the past, let’s call it, I don’t know, year, two years have attracted a ton of eights into my life, like an overwhelming amount of eights.
And, it’s so challenging for me because of that, because of their motivation, right? To, push, push back is kind of how it is demonstrated sometimes, not always. And I. Appreciate the, like, strength that aids bring into situations. Right? I really admire that. I’m just like, Wow, you give no fuck. Like, good for you.
That’s amazing, . And, [00:51:00] um, and it’s, and it’s, and it’s challenging for me sometimes, right? I’m just like, it’s, it’s, it can be really draining, right? If there’s kind of like a, like a very consistent amount of pushback is sometimes what it feels like. And then, on a different note, I have noticed that I have a really hard time maintaining friendships with sevens.
I’m like, same thing, right? I’m like, God, you have so much fun. Like, I’m so stoked about how stoked you are about everything. like, that is so cool. And like, if you don’t respond to my text messages, like, we’re not gonna be able to like, actually like, meet up and, and have coffee or whatever it is that we’re, we’re trying to plan. So my first question is, Why, like why does it happen or does it actually happen? Or maybe it doesn’t happen that we like see patterns of like the types of people that we cross paths with in our lives. That’s my first question. Let’s go there first.
Yeah, I mean, I think that [00:52:00] there, there are often patterns, I think, and, and I think again, it’s like on the individual level rather than on the, you know, overall type level. Though I will say that the specific pairing that I see time and again is in heterosexual couples.
an eight wife with a nine husband that I have seen so many times.
And so that’s really interesting. But,
that is interesting.
I think that when we have a lot of the same type around us, there could be like two different dynamics happening. I think sometimes we’re drawn to people who are similar to us. So for example, for one and eight, there’s a lot of desire for honesty and transparency.
There’s a lot of, rigidity actually from both directions and a lot of like a struggle for control. So eights are just like, Hey, I don’t need to control you. I just don’t want you to control me. Right. And one’s
ones are like, I wanna [00:53:00] control everything.
well, right? And so that causes tension, you know, that can cause a lot of frustration.
Um, and I think for, for eights, maybe they are a bit less concerned about, being appropriate, which means that they can like shed that sense of like, Well, you know, you can’t control me. They can shed that a little bit easier. I think one’s have more of the internal tension depending on the subtype of course.
But, around like, Oh, you wanna control me and I just wanna remain appropriate, but I kind of wanna yell at you. You know, like
that thing happening too. Um, but I also think that we are drawn to people who have something that we would like to see in ourselves. And a lot of the time when we get really frustrated or angry at other people, it’s because we resent that one, we can’t experience what they’re experiencing, which might be that, that seven dynamic, Right?
Or two, like, like wouldn’t it be nice to just feel so free [00:54:00] to not respond to text messages? Must be nice. Like that energy
Oh my God. Like 800%. I.
Yeah. But, but too, I think there’s also, like we resent sometimes things that we see in ourselves. So like even people who are super flaky might really resent somebody who’s super flaky.
Mm, Interesting. Okay, cool. Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense, right? Like I, I do admire that eight set, like really firm boundaries, right? Like, I’m like, God, you just like do that. That’s incredible, right? Like it sometimes it’s so frustrating and also like, good for you. Like that’s awesome. And then yeah, totally with sevens, right?
I’m like, God must be nice to do whatever you want all the time and just like have a blast no matter what
Okay. That makes so much
yeah. And I think for me too, as a three, I, I love eights. I end up having a lot of friendships with eights. And for me, I love that aspect [00:55:00] of like boundaries because it’s great for me to also remember, Oh yeah, I can do that too. I can say, You know what? You’re asking a little bit too much. Instead of always rising to the occasion, which is my natural tendency, just being like, Actually, no.
Yeah. it’s awesome. Okay, so, so let’s say, I’m gonna, I’m gonna use the, the seven example, right? So, as a one I can totally use more seven energy in my life, right? Like and, I like genuinely find it like really difficult to like, maintain friendships with sevens, partially because I just like, can’t keep up, right?
I’m just like, Oh my God, you do so many things. Like I go to bed at the end of the day. How can we really productively support someone who doesn’t share some of the same qualities that we do and honor them and honor ourselves and maintain those relationships. Like, I mean, obviously that’s a loaded [00:56:00] question, but like, what do we do?
Yeah. I mean, I think. that there is definitely a dynamic there, but I, I also, the question I really wanna ask is, why are you still in those relationships? I
Well, I’m not
Oh, , well, yeah, but I think in general, a lot of us do, and we feel the, the sense of duty and we feel this sense of like, needing to be in friendships and in relationships that leave us feeling exhausted or drained or whatever.
And sometimes that’s personal, right? Sometimes that’s inside me where I need to approach something or confront something within myself. But sometimes it’s like, just why am I doing this to myself? You know? But when we have those relationships where, you know, say, I feel like this is every like, marriage relationship.
So my husband and I have been together, um, for 12 years now. We’ve been married for eight. [00:57:00] And so obviously like there are things about each other that are just like, Oh my gosh, you are so irritating, right? Like, he would say the same thing. We, we honestly just did a whole podcast about this. We talked for an hour and a half, about, you know, our relationship and our dynamics and stuff.
And there are things that are frustrating and, and we’ve had to learn. It’s not personal. It’s not like I could go out and get a different husband and not be irritated with them. It’s, it’s the proximity thing, right? It’s, I just know you so well that that and we’ve been together so long. So there are these little things.
And one, I think a lot of it is just acceptance. I think it’s just. Being like, you know what? Like that’s just a part of you. That’s a part of how you are and how you operate and how can I be with you in those moments and recognize, okay, this is something that frustrates you, or something that irritates you or whatever.
And just be with them, in those moments. And then at other times, coming to it with a really non-judgemental [00:58:00] perspective. And, and recognizing what I think is best for my husband might not be what he thinks is best for him. And that’s okay. So how do I support him on his journey rather than supporting him to join my journey?
I think that’s a really tricky thing and something we do in all of our relationships, especially, I’m sorry to say one’s two, threes really need to stop it. Like we are the worst at trying to get people to go onto our journey. And I think that , having a little bit more of a perspective of like welcoming and acceptance and support, and challenging, right? Like, I’m not saying that you can’t ever challenge somebody. You totally can. And I think with, you know, my, so my husband is a one, so a lot of the time the, the challenge or the push is he has amazing, incredible ideas. And I’m like, All right, go do it. Let’s do it.
Come on. You know, and, and like I really am always pushing him to get out of his comfort zone. And, but of course that’s a thing where he’s like, I appreciate that about [00:59:00] you. And so I welcome that energy. And at times when I have tried to convince him without success to care more about his image, like, that’s not really helpful because that’s not a journey that he wants to go on, and it’s not actually going to be useful for. in his overall health and growth as a person. So if he wants to wear shorts to a wedding, like whatever, you know, I mean he would never, but he did wear jeans one time and I was like, alrighty Bud.
Amazing. Such a good visual. Okay, cool. Do you, as we’re starting to kind of wrap up, I wanna do something that, is always kind of like a fun curve ball in these conversations. Do you know the starter pack trend? Okay, great. I wanna do type starter packs. So can you name like one to two things that each type would have in their starter pack?
Okay, so I did read this question and I spent like an hour and a half compiling [01:00:00] them
I will do one or two and um, let’s just give a disclaimer up front. This is gonna be very rude, so just look out if you are a type, you are probably gonna be offended, so, It’s fine. We’re all here, we’re all here to be offended sometimes.
So, but I do think that this is like being a little bit offended is what this meme is about, you know? Um, alright, so type one starter, pack the words properly and should those, like every type one uses them. and then, okay, three things. Creating their own better rules. So not the rules that are set out, but creating their own that are better. And then also the scene from the office when Angela is talking about her relationship with her sister and she’s like, My sister and I used to be best friends and we haven’t spoken in 16 years over some disagreement.
I can’t even remember. So yeah, I’m pretty good. That is like so one to me cuz it’s like [01:01:00] I will stick to my principles no matter what. Even if I can’t remember why I had these principles to.
totally love that. Don’t even get me started on the dmv. I can make up a whole new set of rules for the dmv.
I’m sure I, I am fully confident that you could. So type two, how are you like with lots of question marks and heart emojis? Like that is just very type two. Anytime you say, how are you to a two, they they go, Good. How are you? Sorry, that was just really loud. Probably.
also a back stock of like just in case cards or stationary. And then I would also say they don’t know what they want for their birthday, but they know what you want for your birthday and also maybe they secretly don’t realize that they’re buying the thing that they want for you.
Type three. Literally just being like, Oh, that, that was, that’s [01:02:00] easy. Like with anything. So whether it’s something that they, they’ve done, like for example, run a marathon three, if they decide, Okay, I’m gonna go run a marathon, and then they do it, they’re like, Oh, it was easy. No big deal. Permanently in a rush.
So that’s definitely on their starter pack. And the meme that’s like, uh, you like my personality? Thanks. I made it just for you. That meme
for type four, the meme that it’s like the therapist and the, the client. I, I’m sure everyone’s seen this where it’s like you’re really self-aware and then the client says, Yeah, I, I actually think that’s part of the problem.
That’s for type four. Secretly feeling like they hate anything that’s basic, but also kind of feel like using the word basic is too basic. Would actually have like a better descriptive for, you know, like a very specific and nuanced word for that. And also [01:03:00] just the concept that like everything written about them is almost perfect, but they actually would personalize it a little bit more. Let’s type for us, for fives, researching which blender to buy for six months and then never buying one becoming really disillusioned with the realities of the world. Like thinking like, oh, money is a construct, or, or those sorts of things. , and just convincing themselves that knowing things is productive.
And so it doesn’t matter if they actually apply their knowledge or not. That’s very type five. So these aren’t really items though. They’re just more so concepts, but.
Oh, it’s so good, though.
Type six. Uh, it depends. I heard somebody one time say, indecision may or may not be the problem. And that is like a quintessential type six quote.
Um, and then I, I also think for type six is the devil’s advocate thing,
and a wicked like [01:04:00] self-deprecating humor. Like anytime they talk about something, sixes will cut jokes constantly to, uh, especially about themselves.
Sevens literally the word, the quote, like, you know, it would be fun. It just like, literally, it, it could be anything.
It could be like, Let’s go curling next weekend. And they live in Los Angeles. Like that is just so, type seven, sees the word trapped anywhere in panics. Like, just that concept of something of being trapped themselves makes them panic, and living all of life like at full volume. But also, I think sevens are known for being non-committal, but they are loyal for life once they commit. Yeah. Eights, everything is either suck it up or burn it down. Like there’s no in between secretly a total softy though,
and they sent [01:05:00] one second of ambiguity or hesitation and then decided to take over. It’s very eight, type nine. You know that meme, that’s like the, the dog drinking the coffee is like, this is fine.
Yeah. . Yeah.
nine. They expect literally nothing. But then they’re completely shocked when somebody gives a shit about them. They just are so surprised. And then they’re very, very, very stubborn, but a little bit ashamed of it. Yeah.
Oh, that was so good. Thank you. And thank you for like, thinking about that ahead of time and preparing. I hope you use this for your
I think I might
Yeah, you totally should. Um, it was, I was just like, Okay, how can we, how can we come up with something like kind of different to, to help people relate to?
I have one more question for you, and then I’m gonna hand you the mic to say whatever you wanna say. And this was something that you mentioned earlier, like, Oh yeah, someone like said this to me online. What is the most audacious thing that somebody has said to you online?
uh, I [01:06:00] mean it’s probably a tie between you charge for that, or like it costs money to work with you. That, that concept.
And then the other thing is like, People out of the blue sending me their freaking life story and I’m like, Oh my gosh, I have to scroll like eight times to get to the bottom of this message.
And then they’re like, So, you know, what enneagram type do you think blah, blah, blah is, or, or whatever, Like telling me their life story and then asking me to, for free, this is like in the dms, just apply all of my enneagram knowledge to it.
Amazing. How do you respond to that?
Um, it depends. Sometimes, you
yeah. It, it could be that, it could be like, Hey, I am so glad you wanna chat about this. Here is where you can book a call with me. Or, sometimes I just don’t respond at all. Especially if it’s like, I’m like, [01:07:00] I am at my wit’s end today. I just don’t, I can’t do it.
Yeah, totally. Okay. I wanna hand you the literal mic. What didn’t I ask you about that you wanna make sure is said in our conversation?
Hmm. I think the big thing is stop finding your enneagram type on social media like, I just think that there’s so much more depth, you know, I think that’s what I really want people to know about the enneagram there’s so much more depth and complexity and really ways to apply it, and social media is really fun, but at the end of the day, like I know that there’s so much more there, that you’re not gonna be able to find in a small square on Instagram.
So, looking for, you know, your type or looking to understand yourself better, looking to actually get coaching or, or working with somebody, all of those things can happen. Offline more than, looking [01:08:00] on Instagram and stuff. I, I think that’s like my big takeaway because even for myself, like I kind of have such a love hate relationship with social media overall.
Um, and so just like really wanting people to, to kind of go deeper with it and, and get beyond that surface level.
Hmm. Yeah. So important. If someone wants to go deeper and they want to either take your course or work with you directly, where do they go?
Yeah. You can go to my website, It’s ninetypes.co. And there you will find information about my course, which is called Enneagram IRL enneagram in real life. And it breaks down the enneagram in a really, a really a deep overview of each of the types. I mean, I would actually say it’s beyond an overview, because some of the past participants have gone to.
Enneagram programs and they still learned new things. So, but yeah, and it, it also walks you through how to grow for your type. Like how do you actually apply this in the, your daily life. That’s what I really care about and that’s what I’m really passionate about, is [01:09:00] helping people to take the information and apply it.
So my course, Enneagram IRL or my podcast, which is also called Enneagram IRL. You can come hang out with me there. Come learn more about the enneagram listen to podcast episode or interviews those are really great too, and more to come. I have some new things in the works, but not ready to share quite yet, but maybe by the time this is out, you’ll get to hear about.
Cool. Steph, thank you so much. I could interview you like eight times over about like each of the questions that I asked, and I’m sure that you feel the same way. I know we barely brush the surface, but thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your immense knowledge with us, and just making it so tangible and approachable too.
Of course. Thanks so much for having me.
What I loved about this conversation with Steph was that it was immediately clear to me how knowledgeable she is about what she does. I think it’s easy for us to look at a social media account like the Nine Types co account and think, Oh, this is a really fun [01:10:00] viral Instagram account. This is funny, this is relatable.
I’ll share this to my stories, accurate, whatever. And it is, I love it. I’m sure you love it too. But Steph is a wealth of knowledge about the enneagram. And not only the, the tool itself, but also its application to help us know ourselves and others better. We barely scratched the surface in our conversation, and there were even two questions that I really, really wanted to ask her that we didn’t get to.
I say what those questions are. In the debrief, which is available to members of our community, our annual membership. So you can go join the membership, uh, use the code in the show notes, and listen to The Debrief over there to find out what those two questions were. Maybe we can convince her to come back and answer them.
You can follow Steph on Instagram @ninetypesco. You can listen to her podcast, Enneagram IRL and you can also take her course also called Enneagram IRL which is found on her website. Thanks so much for [01:11:00] listening.